Archive for the 'Apocalypse World' Category

Apocalypse World: Structured Freeform, Take 1

February 1, 2011

A Twitter discussion with John Harper and Rob Donoghue made me think of drafting up something like this. This version isn’t quite what I originally had in mind when I started typing, but it’s okay. It’s called “Take 1” because I’m going to keep thinking about it and try to come up with another version that doesn’t use resource management (tokens), which is a bit of a cop-out as far as freeform designs go.

At the beginning of a session, the MC starts with a number of tokens representing the harshness of the world. He takes a token for every step the countdown clocks on his Threats have advanced, representing the progress of fundamental scarcities, and assigns these tokens to specific threats. Additionally, whenever he advances a countdown clock, the MC places another token on this threat.

Play Apocalypse World as normal, but, when a player makes a move:

  • they succeed with a 7-9 as the default
  • if another player decides to help, bump this up a tier (frex: to a 10+)
  • if another player decides to interfere, bump this down a tier (frex: to a 6-)
  • if the player declares that they are cooler, harder, hotter, sharper, weirder, better prepared (stuff), or more expert (playbook move) than their opposition, bump their result up one tier and mark off one point of their stat for this session (for example, a +3 becomes a +2)
  • if the player declares they are superior, but no longer have a positive attribute in that stat, the MC takes a token for pride
  • if the player uses a move from a stat in which they have a -1 or below, they begin with a 6- result
  • at any point, the MC can spend a token from the appropriate threat to narrate additional bad shit that lowers the player’s current result by a tier

The main problem with this current setup is that it might become a battle of attrition between the MC and the players, to see whose resources hold out the longest, and that’s less than ideal. I really want a setup were the players choose the level of result that they get, telling the MC what kind of moves he gets to make in response. Still working that out in my head.

That Ancient Serpent: Rules

January 27, 2011

Over beers the other night, John mentioned my plans to hack Apocalypse World to create a crusaderpunk setting inspired by Rifts: Wormwood and the German post-apocalyptic angels game Engel. I’d honestly forgotten that I’d written this basic sketch up on the train, before starting Super Suit. Here it is:

Stats + Basic Moves
Those who have self-appointed themselves as the just and the righteous claim that their inner strengths – their faith, wrath, zeal, truth, fire, and love – are simply lesser earthly reflections of the attributes of God, magnified by His mortal servants. They also say that these same traits in the unjust and unrighteous are projections of human hubris, manifestations of the deadly sin of Pride. Were that this was so.

The basic stats are faith (cool), wrath (hard), zeal (hot), truth (sharp), fire (weird), and love (Hx).

  • When you place your trust in God (or man) in time of danger (act under fire w/faith)
  • When you cow your enemies with righteous fury (go aggro w/wrath)
  • When you shed blood together in glorious strife (seize by force w/ wrath)
  • When you enjoin someone with the rectitude of your cause (seduce or manipulate, w/zeal)
  • When you are shown the inner workings of the human heart (read a person, w/truth)
  • When you are given insight into the true nature of things (read a charged situation, w/truth)
  • When you soul is licked by tongues of flame (open your brain, w/fire)
  • When you love your neighbor or harden your heart against them (help or interfere, w/love)
  • When you suffer for the greater glory of God (or man) (take harm, w/harm taken)
  • When you are brought together by righteous suffering (heal someone or are healed, love grows deeper)

Character Creation
Choose your name
Choose your ethnic + religious heritage
Rather than picking a character type, pick up to three character backgrounds and then 3 moves, at least one from each background.
Roll to see if you have been exposed to the plague. Djinn do not have to roll, since they are immune.
Pick your Special for the list, based on what seems most appropriate.


Eye on the Door: escape w/Faith
Moonlighting: doing murders + cover
Ice Cold: Go Aggro w/Faith/Love
— Interfere with Zeal

Fortunes: surplus w/Fortunes
Prepared: Heal w/stock spent, 2-stock
Opportunistic: Interfere w/Faith
Prof. Compassion: Help w/Truth
Battlefield Grace: +1 armor when caring, not fighting

Moonlighting: honest work + one other
Things Speak: questions w/Fire
Bonefeel: arrive prepared w/Fire

Djinn (cannot be Infected)
Dang & Sexy: stun w/Zeal
Hypnotic: devotion w/Zeal
Perfect Instincts: Read Sit at +2
Breathtaking: +1Zeal

Healing Touch: Heal w/Fire
Frenzy: lead mob w/Fire
Charismatic: Manipulate w/Fire
Reality’s Fraying: Augury
Unnat. Lust: Seduce w/Fire
Whacknut: +1Fire

Half-Djinn (cannot be Djinn)
Art & Gracious: desire w/Zeal
Seeing Souls: Help or Interfere w/Fire
Spooky Intense: Act w/Fire

Infirmary: workspace for patients
Angel Kit: Heal w/stock spent, 6-stock
Touched by Death: death = +1Fire

Visions of Death: say who will die w/Fire
Arresting: auto-stun
Merciless: +1Harm
Impossible Reflexes: 2/1-Armor
Direct Brain Whisper: Go Aggro w/Fire, no interact
Deep Insights: +1Fire

Leadership: gang fights w/Wrath
No Shit Driver: stats while in car
Collector: 2 more cars

Wealth: surplus w/Wrath
Fucking Thieves: stuff w/Wrath
Easy to Trust: Seduce or Manip w/Faith/Love

Oftener Right: advice
Divine Protection: 1-armor
Moonlighting: honest work + one other
Insano: +1Wrath

Redeemed (must first be Infected)
Reputation: reputation w/Faith
Bloodcrazed: +1Harm
NTBFW: count as a small gang
Battle Hardened: Act w/Wrath

Battle Instincts: Open w/Wrath in battle
With proper tools, count as a small gang against dragons
Car is Tank: big, tough car
Optional Battle Moves (against dragons)

Fuck This Shit: escape w/Wrath
Pack Alpha: lead w/Wrath
Daredevil: +1Armor in danger
Good in Clinch: Act w/Truth

Lost: someone comes w/Fire
Deep Brain Scan: questions w/Fire
In-Brain Puppet: command w/Fire
Casual Recept: Read Per w/Fire, no interact
Reality’s Fraying: Augury
Pret. At-Will: +1Fire

Special: Hx+3/+1
Special: nullify
Special: Deep Brain Scan, auto-hit
Special: gotta go
Special: +1Forward/+1Forward
Special: 1-barter gift
Special: Help or Interfere, no interact
Special: gig to keep them happy
Special: Things Speak, auto-hit
Special: several options for influencing others (Skinner)

How to Portray Dragons
To summarize: cross nightmares, tyrannosaurs, and crows. Dragons are feathered dinosaurs (like what we now think dinosaurs looked like) with an aura of terror based on Arresting Skinner.

Dragons are alpha scavengers: airborne tyrannosaurs with a cold, avian intelligence, possessing both a raven’s nose for blood and its eye for hoarding shiny objects. They descend on sites of violence and death – battlefields, hospitals, abattoirs, freshly dug graves – like sharks in a gluttonous frenzy. But rarely do they start the carnage themselves, preferring instead to amplify mankind’s own bloody tendencies into a sickening cacophony of suffering, turning tragedies into abominations with their mere presence. Wherever the scent of blood or pestilence rises into the air or the flash of riches or clash of arms glints brightly, they will come.

Dual Harm/Infection Clocks
In addition to the Harm clock there is also an Infection clock for each character, including NPCs. When a character has taken Harm, they can choose to heal that Harm by trading it in for equal amounts of Infection. The contagion simply takes over the injured parts of your body and fixes them up, but it also takes them for its own, causing your to grow slightly monstrous. Removing infection is possible, but it either requires a supreme act of exorcism or burning the infection out with djinn-fire. Both of those typically require you to take more damage than the infection originally healed, so – if you’re at a high infection level – removing the infection may very well kill you.

Also, sometimes becoming infected isn’t a choice on the player’s part. Sometimes when you mess up a Harm roll, the MC can give your some of the Harm you were supposed to take as Infection.

That Ancient Serpent

December 20, 2010

This post is going to be a work in progress, since I want to get back to doing incremental design on this blog, rather than in InDesign or on a forum. It is going to be a super-short, super-light hack of Apocalypse World, no longer than 2 pages in length, to handle the “outbreak of dragons” concept I posted earlier. Here goes:


Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a basilisk, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. — Isaiah 14:29

It is currently after the Second Crusade but before the Fall of Jerusalem to Saladin. The draconic plague has come, spreading through the Levant from some mysterious source. No black wings yet fill the skies, but it is only a matter of time. Baldwin the Leper is King of Jerusalem, but he is growing more and more enfeebled from the plague that has kept him wrapped in bandages and largely concealed from public view. Rumors have it that he is molting off swaths of scaly skin and that his insides are writhing and transforming. It will not be long now. But the king is hardly the only one infected and, if a quarantine is not enacted soon, we may all very well perish in the fire that is coming. The red dragon has been loosed from the bottomless put, and this is surely the Apocalypse.

Add to Character Creation

  • English, French, German, Spanish, Byzantine, Born in the Holy Land, Persian, Egyptian, Arabian, etc.
  • Jewish, Christian, Muslim, other (Zoroastrian, etc.), or choose a more specific patron (i.e. the Archangel Michael).
  • Infected Human (choose 1 move from the Plaguebook), Uninfected Human (choose 1 additional move from any playbook), Djinn (choose 1 move from the Book of Flame; cannot become infected), Half-Djinn (choose 1 move from the Book of Flame; can become infected, but do not start play that way), or Redeemed (former plaguebearer who had the plague burned out of them by djinn-fire; cannot become infected; starts with a special move I haven’t written yet; based on Apoc from Wormwood)
  • Dragonslaying heritage (replace 1 move with a move from the Book of Slaughter) or no Dragonslaying heritage (take Hx+2 or Hx-2 with an old slayer family).
  • Make a list of slayer family names as options to pick from the name list

Special Playbooks

  • The Plaguebook: moves for the infected; once you start taking moves from this book, you can’t stop (though you can still take other moves too), and once you’ve taken 3 moves, you must switch to the book entirely; and the final XP option is turning into a dragon, becoming one of the GM’s threats, and making a new character
  • The Book of Slaughter: ancient techniques passed down by the slayer families for killing and quarantining dragons; must be learned from the families but can be taught to those outside the lineage
  • The Book of Flame: techniques for djinn and half-djinn, made as they are from smokeless fire; one can discover their djinn heritage during play, but these techniques cannot normally be taught to outsiders; however, those with highly advanced cases of the plague begin to spontaneously manifest fiery magicks.
  • The Book of Life: advanced techniques for those of extreme faith, drawing on their connection to God, the Prophets, and the angels; clergy may or may not have these gifts; see, for an example,

Normal Playbooks (all of these will simply use renamed existing moves from AW)

  • Knight: Templar/Hospitaller(first aid kit, like Gunlugger)/of Saladin
  • Warrior/Crusading Grunt
  • Assassin
  • Clergy
  • Noble

The great beasts simply count as gangs of various sizes depending on the potency of a given dragon. They also generally work like threats and have special threat moves of their own.

The Plague
Each major NPC in the game that becomes infected has their own countdown clock. You can guess what it counts down to. Non-named characters are simply treated as part of larger threats, which have countdown clocks that represent the spread of the plague in certain regions. There are, of course, plenty of threats that are not directly related to the plague, such as infighting and bureaucratic nonsense and people with the best intentions.

An Outbreak of Dragons

December 18, 2010

I was just thinking about how to combine fantasy with body horror.

What if monsters are an infection?

So it’s late medieval times, the Black Death (that horrid outbreak of monsters) is long gone, and nobody’s seen a dragon in a century. However, there are a few families that keep practicing the dragon-slaying arts, teaching them to their children in case the wyrms ever return. But the siege weapons that were once used to bring down the great flying beast are all ancient and rusty. And with only 20+ people who know how to man them, half of them ancient themselves, and no officials manning their posts who know shit about how to conduct a quarantine after a dragon has been slain, nobody is ready for what’s about to happen.

Gravediggers and treasure seekers uncover part of a mummified dragon corpse deep in the desert, with the insides still fleshy and warm. Soon they are infected, turning into scale-covered beast-men with mouths full of fangs and a hunger for raw flesh. Many of them are slain in grisly street battles and entire cities are put to the torch and the sword, attempting to stop their spread, but it is too late. A few escape deep inside desert caves, where their scales molt off and their true form emerges.

The dragon-slaying families go to work, their rusty skills now the only chance of halting the disease. But they are hampered at every turn by kings and bureaucrats who think they know better or want to be heroes. When a dragon attacks Jerusalem and is finally brought down, no quarantine is declared, even though half the city is splattered with dragon blood. The sultan himself has the heart of the beast roasted and brought to him on a platter, the fool. Soon the holy city is teeming with monsters.

Somebody’s going to have to put an end to this, and nobody but the old slayer families and a few enlisted allies will do it. But that will mean enforcing the quarantine on their own, including killing some of their brothers, sisters, and kinsmen who become infected over the course of their messy job.



October 26, 2010

I’m calling these splats, so nobody better write them up before me. Or else I will look at you very sternly across the internet! 🙂

The Taikonaut

This character type starts out the game on a space station, with no way to contact the other characters unless they take certain moves like “microwave relay.” Also, they have -1 Hard because their body has become very weak from years in space, but they begin with a move that gives them +2 or +3 Hard in zero-G. They don’t have any way to mechanically purchase their return to earth, so they and the other players have to make that happen through the narrative. However, there is a character move called The Man Who Fell to Earth that goes: “When you land on the planet’s surface…” which talks about how your character changes at that point. There may also be a move that talks about what happens if you decide to head for one of the moonbases instead.

The Terrorform

This character type is a swarm of programmed nanotech bots that was made to reconfigure the earth back into a livable habitat after the apocalypse happened. However, the swarm is all sentient and messed up because of radiation or the Psychic Maelstrom or some other shit, so the Terrorform acts more a totemic spirit of the land and the land is fucking angry. This is going to be an experiment in using the Apocalypse World rules to provide rules for something that isn’t even really a character in the traditional PC sense. It’s also going to have a bunch of moves that allow it to draw, erase, and otherwise manipulate things on the maps your group has drawn for playing the game, since that’s one of the core requirements of AW, right?

The Way This Wheel Burns

September 14, 2010

Over here, Clyde is talking about breaking down GMing 4E into Apocalypse World-style MC agendas. I don’t really agree with the way he’s done it, because my instinct is to go back to the text and see what the game actually says you are supposed to do, since I figure a lot of that stuff is encoded in there and just needs to be explicitly called out instead of buried in paragraphs of GM advice.

I meant to attempt this first with Fiasco and Geiger Counter, but since Clyde asked for responses and since I’m reading the Burning Wheel Adventure Burner, right now, here goes…

BW Player Agendas / Always Say / Principles

  • Dig deep into the rules (p. 7)
  • Give BW a fair shot (p. 7)
  • Fight for what you believe with steel, words, and magic (p. 9)
  • Cultivate strong opinions, vision, and zeal, but be courteous and gentlemanly (p. 12)
  • Dare the GM to hurt you, hurl your character into danger (p. 12)
  • Play dumb about risks, encourage risky behavior, make bad decisions and enjoy the fallout (p. 12)
  • Commit to your gamesmanship in the numbers and your sense of drama in Beliefs and Instincts (p. 13)
  • Let your experiences at the table, not your personal beliefs, shape your transformation (p. 13)
  • Set out on the wrong path, to set up a tense and exciting opportunity to do the right thing (p. 14)
  • Explore conflicts of interest, show the rest of us that internal struggle (p. 14)

BW GM Agendas / Always Say / Principles

  • Come to BW as it is (p. 8)
  • Embrace life’s mundane difficulties (poverty, tools, and shoes) as a chance to get into trouble over something innocuous (p. 10)
  • Set obstacles and call for tests to challenge the characters’ beliefs (p. 11)
  • Have an overall vision of the world, a handful of problems in that world, and a host of characters who embody those problems (p. 14)
  • Balance your vision and will to persevere with an accommodating, cooperative attitude (p. 14)
  • Never be rude or react out of anger (p. 14)
  • Present unexpected challenges that make perfect sense in the context of the setting and the action (p. 14)
  • Do your best to place your ideas in harm’s way: in the path of the players (p. 14)
  • When you feel that tightening in your gut, “No I can’t let them,” set an obstacle and call for a test (p. 14)
  • Allow the game to emerge through exploration (p. 15)

Now, those could probably be revised and reordered to make more sense as lists of principles, but I thought it best to keep it more or less in Luke’s exact words for now, to show how I think you can just pull these things directly out of the text and try to apply them, instead of absorbing them as general advice and attempting to internalize them, which is the traditional way of approaching GM guidelines.

Luke actually does a really great job in the first chapter of the Adventure Burner of boiling things down into short, punchy phrases that describe exactly what you are supposed to do. It’s basically a halfway point between more traditionally written GM advice and the principles approach that Vincent takes in Apocalypse World. I’d be interested to see what Will Hindmarch and others thought of it, whether they found it less off-putting than their first read-through of Apocalypse World. Luke may have hit upon a good style for appealing to roleplayers used to or more comfortable with traditional GM advice, which I suspect is Burning Wheel’s core audience.

Beyond the Master of Ceremonies

September 12, 2010

This is my response to Ewen Cluney’s response to my response to Will Hindmarch’s response to Apocalypse World. This conversation just keeps giving and giving.

In Ewen’s words, one of the things that AW does is attempt to address that problem that…

…we don’t really have the vocabulary or techniques that we probably should for discussing (much less modifying) what exactly the GM does.

And that’s totally true. However, when I ponder that a bit further, I think about Vincent’s interview with Clyde and their assertion that now we can finally talk about how to design games, since we’ve won the battle about there being different valid ways to play, etc.

But where does that come from? What vocabulary do we have to talk about how to design games? And when I think about the MC again, and the new vocabulary we have to talk about GMing, I say to myself: Look, the GM is just a player, or maybe a specific kind of player role. So what we have is a new vocabulary for talking about how to play games.

Is that the same as a new vocabulary for talking about how to design games? Not yet, but it’s a hell of a lot better than what we’ve had previously. And in attempting to build on and explicate how to play, maybe we can figure out how to talk about design along the way.

Tearing Veils Asunder

September 8, 2010

I’ve been carefully following Will Hindmarch’s attempt to wrestle with the rules text of Apocalypse World, which has been both fascinating and really enlightening. Will, who’s done a lot of work for White Wolf, writes the thoroughly terrific blog gameplaywright and co-wrote/edited Things We Think About Games, which is equally provocative and terrific. Also, the few times I’ve met him in person — last time while he was trying out Castle Ravenloft at PAX — he seems like a top-notch dude.

I’m going to try really hard not to project Will’s perspective here, because he does a way better job of that himself, but one of the most challenging parts of Apocalypse World is the way that it rips asunder two different aspects of what roleplaying has been for many folks.

First, it completely lays bare the procedures for play. You do this; and then you do that. I find Brand’s stunned reaction to people actually picking names off the name list to be another fascinating aspect of this. There has traditionally been this understanding that game texts can’t really tell you how to play, that players have to bring a lot of that themselves, not just game content but unwritten procedures. Likewise, even when a text does try to explicitly tell you how to play — as in Poison’d — frequently people don’t take those instructions at face value (I know I didn’t). It doesn’t ACTUALLY mean we do that, certainly. But in AW, nearly all the procedures you need are explicitly laid out for you. There is no mystery and no secret techniques are required. As Fang Langford neatly says in that thread, “Will has encountered what might be THE ’system does matter’ game,” a culmination of a long series of steps aimed at explicitly codifying play procedures frequently left implicit. No surprise, many folks will find this uncomfortable, at least at first. This is a different approach to what roleplaying is or can be. Brand’s mind says, “But surely picking characters’ names can’t/shouldn’t be made into an explicit procedure” (apologies to Brand if I’m reading him wrong), but AW says, “yes, actually it can; anything can.”

Secondly and related, it makes no effort to offer flexibility to people with different tastes or desires, aside from encouraging folks to hack the game to be whatever they want and providing some suggestions on how that might be done. In this, it is a classic autuer game in the Forge tradition, offering audiences a very specific thing and asking if they’d like to participate in it, rather than handing them some general tools and telling them that they should make their own fun. It’s 100% okay if folks don’t like what AW is offering. We have definitely reached the point where there will be brilliant roleplaying games that folks, however open-minded and cultured, may not find a way to enjoy or will at least struggle for a long time before finding a way to fully appreciate something (I’m on record of having that experience with Poison’d and In a Wicked Age, for example). That’s what happens when we push the bubble a bit and make challenging games. They can be difficult, not just in the content material they deal with, but in other important ways, like what they ask from those participating in them. AW doesn’t cover itself in a veil that says, “this game is for everyone” or “everyone can enjoy playing the same game together.” It says, actually, “this game is this way; other games are whatever way they are; I hope you find a game that’s fulfilling for you; maybe this one is it, but maybe not.”

And, really, there’s a third thing that making a game this explicit does: it exposes the fact that, despite us all being in the same hobby, we’re all doing different things, sometimes fundamentally different things. Not always, sometimes we are doing very similar things, but definitely sometimes — sometimes you have a conversation or read or play a new game and realize just how big the gulf is. And, speaking personally now, not for anybody else, I find that both deeply exciting and unnerving.

Playbook: Valkyrie

August 10, 2010

I’m working on a new character type for Apocalypse World, inspired by the “Broken Rainbow” campaign I ran earlier this year. An initial sketch is posted over at Barf Forth Apocalyptica. Here’s an excerpt:

By default your army consists of about 15 fucking poltergeists that you ripped untimely from the violent womb of the Psychic Maelstrom. Likely, you murdered at least half these fuckers personally, with your bare hands, and for half the rest you were watching appreciatively as the killing was done. They don’t rightly believe your promises about riding out to glory in the end times, seeing as how the end times have come and gone without no glory to be had a’tall. And the best part is: no one can see these fuckers but you, the occasional dog, horse, or child, and madmen who ain’t full right in the head.

Apocalypse World?

July 1, 2010

Just something I’ve been thinking about.

Firmament Notes: The Sciences

April 27, 2010

Life’s been too busy to work on Geiger, so here are some notes mostly to myself.

In addition to all the other scarcities that Apocalypse World is normally about, Fingers on the Firmament is about a scarcity of people or — even worse — any sign of human existence. Floating in the vastness of space, it’s nearly impossible to find anything at all. The universe is insanity-inducingly immense and basically empty.

The Darkness Between the Stars = The Psychic Maelstrom, duh.

The Three Sciences, Cartography, Astronomy, and Archeology, are basically the equivalent of character types, except that they encompass an even wider range of optional special moves. Two Cartographers are probably even more different than two characters of the same type in AW. There’s also another category of special moves, outside the Sciences, which can be gained contextually, based on things you discover in play or from having too much congress with The Darkness. Actually, those are probably too different sets — contextual moves and the Lonesome Arts, learned while lost in space.

The Hardholder and other leadership moves are definitely contextual, with rules like: “If you have a group of more than N people, any player can choose to purchase Leadership” or “If you’ve seized control of a base area, spend blah blah blah to improve it, choose related gigs, etc.” Vincent basically implies these kinds of contextual things already, but I want to make some very explicit and perhaps even connected to specific locations.

Archaeology = pretty close to the Savvyhead, communes with all the relics and ruins and remains. Probably has some default gigs related to uncovering secrets or following trails of ancient history. I kinda want to call that gig “Do Mysteries” but that’s AW jargon, not Firmament. Also probably has something like “Fucking Thieves” where he always has random gear on hand.

Cartography = a mixture of escape / travel moves (“Eye on the Door”) and tracking moves (“Lost”), but built around a core set of mapping moves that are probably brand new, plus some of the Skinner’s performance-based stuff, because Cartography is done through dancing and body memory. Natural gigs are related to mapping, uncovering lost roads, etc.

Astronomy = combination Brainer, Angel, Hocus, focusing on talking with stars (a different kind of weird than The Darkness) and manipulating starlight. I’m thinking that, fundamentally, there are a couple core currencies: Starlight (which is effectively hold you have over all sorts of things) and some kind of debt to the Darkness (hold it has over you, which you can spend in an attempt to rid yourself of it). Astronomy specializes in the former. Not sure what an astronomer’s natural gigs are. Maybe lighting and maintaining beacons (non-star objects that emit starlight and are thus critical to navigation)? That would seem to place them close with the others near the core concept of the game, which is great since they’ve been an outlier in earlier conceptualizations.

The core moves will be adjusted to basically be the foundations of all the Sciences, because everybody has to do a bit of everything just to survive, especially in instances where you get lost and alone. Of course, you can always take on more debt to the Darkness to be reunited with other people wandering through space, but eventually you make return to your group as an insane, destructive creature of the void, considering the amount of hold it’ll have over you, and that’ll be pretty bad for them.